Forum Awards — Preview Pack

(05-14-2016, 08:46 PM)Inton Wrote:

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(05-14-2016, 08:45 PM)Jebusfathead Wrote:

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HONESTY IS NOT ALWAYS THE BEST POLICY

No, but it is the most efficient way to improve and help someone.

That's still not 100% true, people who might do graphics for fun would most likely be really put off by some harsh critics who are putting their subjective thoughts into 'objective' criticism.

And also, I've done so many things for free it's not even funny. And for things like animated sigs, thread designs, logos, I charge waaaay to little. Hell, I even sold a pack of like 6 userbars for like $15. There's nothing wrong with wanting some money for your work.

(05-14-2016, 08:36 PM)Inton Wrote:

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(05-14-2016, 08:25 PM)Jebusfathead Wrote:

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But if you run over people with a truck over and over, they'll just end up not bothering, then you'll just end up with graphic designers who charge so much money and who are absolutely rude and disrespectful and people won't even bother hiring them, cause if anyone spoke to me worse then what I see on here then I'd tell them to shove their graphics up their arse and hope it pays the bills. Some criticism is fine, but when people start criticising other people's base ideal on which they base their work, that's just stupid, it's like saying 'Here draw a circle, no your circle is wrong it's not circley enough' Like, if they want to do something and others think it is good, what right does anyone have to shit all over their work, sure they can criticise it, but shitting on something and calling it criticism is not the right term for it.

If you become a dick because someone were honest with you, then you'd really need to grow up. Face the reality, that well reality is a cruel and honest place to be. That is why we have constructive feedback, to avoid that scenario. You tell people why something is wrong or bad, and tell them on how to improve on that. (Hopefully without directly telling them, as they'll need to learn how to think for themselves too). For the past years I've been criticized by professionals, critics and randoms on a daily basis. The thing I learned is this;

Random people are too kind and un-knowledgeable/un-experienced to give any feedback that is remotely helpful most of the time. However they can be useful to see things from a different view.

Critics are downright honest, and while it hurts like a truck at times, it is the most efficient way to improve. The reason is that they are being honest in the most graphic way to make sure you understood them in every possible way. They often have experience and knowledge to share as well, along with offering an alternative view.

Professionals are a mixed bag, as some are terrible at criticism as they tend to be too afraid that people will look down at them afterwards, that or they are all high and mighty, which just means they'll give shallow reasons for their comments and/or no reason at all. Though as I said, they could be a mixed bag and fill the same role as a critic.

In design, ideal plays a big role in the work. You should be able to explain what your thought was, how you used that thought to make the final product and so on. Furthermore, unlike art, in design the person at the other end (the one getting it) has to understand your ideal. If you fail to do that, then your design has failed to do its job. (This is the reason most people instantly see red as a "bad color" or a "warning". It is also the reason why we don't question that a "X" means close for example. Its become an understandable trait.)

But that still doesn't justify the fact that although sometimes you have to be tough with criticism so people will improve, it doesn't excuse the fact that being a dick all the time not only to people's work, but to their ideas as well is not ok.

(05-14-2016, 08:44 PM)Inton Wrote:

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(05-14-2016, 08:39 PM)Jebusfathead Wrote:

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But that still doesn't justify the fact that although sometimes you have to be tough with criticism so people will improve, it doesn't excuse the fact that being a dick all the time not only to people's work, but to their ideas as well is not ok.

If honest equals being a dick, then those that believe that must have a really hard time in life. When you post something in a "showcase" section, you do so to showcase your work. There are two reasons to do this, to brag or to improve. If you get mad when someone tries to help you improve in the most efficient way then you either get very salty or you only wanted people to brag about your work. If that was the case, then you should inform that you don't want constructive feedback, and if you don't do that then deal with the fact that someone took time of their day to try and help you.

Its just as "dickish" or more to result with anger when someone tries to help you.

HONESTY IS NOT ALWAYS THE BEST POLICY

(05-14-2016, 08:45 PM)Jebusfathead Wrote:

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HONESTY IS NOT ALWAYS THE BEST POLICY

No, but it is the most efficient way to improve and help someone.

(05-14-2016, 09:14 PM)BubbleBoy Wrote:

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LOL!!! OMG INTON! You're taking this too far. All this started with the awards I made. I was going to to make awards for the site. Nathy insisted that he was going to pay me. At first I was like, okay, I guess. I felt guilty because honestly, I didn't want to get paid for it. So I told him I'd do it for free. He kept insisting that he was going to pay me because of all I've done for FR and SBB. Keep in mind I wasn't paid for ANYTHING I've done for FR ans SBB. I said if he were to pay me just make my group cheaper, $10 was what he was going to pay me for whatever awards he needed, so my group would cost 10 dollars less. But I thought to myself, I've done all this for the community I love, and I love what I'm doing, so I paid full price for the group anyways, because I didn't want to get paid for something I love doing.

I am no mind-reader, nor do I follow every one of your public conversations with Nathy. (I promise I am no stalker. Sometimes.) You did admit that you at first agreed to taking payment, which is what I went off. Seeing how I couldn't find a place where you refused it until I said something about it. Also, I am not taking it "too far", I was just trying to prove the point to someone who actually have the intellect to debate properly. (Which is more or less for fun.)

So if I make a black circle in Photoshop, does that justify charging 500$ for it of a random buyer? No. (And I can guarantee you that the majority would see it the same way, as no one would buy it.) Its the same with the example I used. If a person agrees to pay before the service has been met, such as in the case of a shop then they have agreed on that. (That being said, the seller can still say they want payment first and still give it for free afterwards.) However, if someone makes something randomly that took them 10 seconds to make, with no effort put into it, then charging for it is not justified. Lets take another example. (As I am not the only who thinks like this these days.)

Bethesda released a "Horse armor" pack back in the days for Oblivion, people became furious when they realized that they had bought something that should've been free. The content, the work wasn't worth money. It simply had no effort to it. A little while ago when "The Witcher III" released the studio behind it said they'd release a bunch of DLC. People assumed they had to sell their house to have enough cash for it, the studio then informed that all the DLC expect two were going to be free.

Their reason? Simple. They stated that something that only take a tiny bit of time, with no real effort in it shouldn't be charged for. It isn't justified. But the two remaining DLCs that were large, waste and took months to make, they said it was justified to charge for those as it took effort and time to create unlike the others. The trend of "charging for every little thing" when overboard a few years ago, and have gotten worse with the years. Back when I started with graphical art and design, people were making forum tags for free as it only took a couple of minutes.

Now I see the same types of tags being sold for 20-50 US dollars. Requiring the same amount of work, the same amount of effort as the older ones. Which was next to none. Another prime example as I used earlier would be DLCs for games. Not all are worthy of a price, which is why studios release them for free. They cannot justify a price for it.

I am talking about an agreement before the deal, not charging for something the "receiver" didn't know would cost. Once again, we're not talking about a stupid dumb circle and such amount. If you are still referring to this awards made by @10, then like he stated himself: He did not want a payment, but he was offered. Even if he did want to charge, there's nothing wrong with it. (Unless he says it'll cost something after delivering the work etc.)

My point is - small things can cost, and prices is up to the buyer, whether it's justified or not. If he doesn't like it, move on.

(05-14-2016, 09:22 PM)Inton Wrote:

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(05-14-2016, 09:15 PM)Redsin Wrote:

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I am talking about an agreement before the deal, not charging for something the "receiver" didn't know would cost. Once again, we're not talking about a stupid dumb circle and such amount. If you are still referring to this awards made by @10, then like he stated himself: He did not want a payment, but he was offered. Even if he did want to charge, there's nothing wrong with it. (Unless he says it'll cost something after delivering the work etc.

My point is - small things can cost, and prices is up to the buyer, whether it's justified or not. If he doesn't like it, move on.

And as he stated himself, he originally agreed to taking money for them. (Which was when my comment about it popped up, and afterwards he stated he refused the money. I cannot honestly be expected to look into the future, now can I?) I was talking about charging for something that isn't justified, not an agreement, so you did fail to even follow the subject at hand. (Because as I already said, I agree to some degree on that point, which still wasn't the topic.)

The point you make at the end there. You know why people don't change easily? Because they try to gain something all the time. They are more fixated on gaining something than changing something. There was barely a single artist 5 years ago that charged for simple work, and a funny thing, there were also hundreds more artists, all whom were more skilled than 90% of people today. The only thing that change was that people started charging for every little thing. That means they do less work, get less practice, and get less constructive feedback. Meaning the overall quality drops and people get nowhere. Because they get to fixated on something as (ironically) worthless as numbers.

If you are doing a job and you can do it as bad as you want and still get charged, then the majority will just do it as simple and bad as they can as they don't care. That means little quality, no improvement and a twisted view on what's "good". I believe, and insist that others should at least consider it, that improvement, quality and moving forward is far better and more interesting than going backwards.

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(05-14-2016, 09:21 PM)BubbleBoy Wrote:

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Of course @12 , these kids are taking you serious, be careful lol you might hurt their pride

Its a tad ironic really, how this thing started because I stated that being honest is the best way to improve and here we are having a debate because I was too honest.

I mean it's nice to have these people side with me, but honestly you make really good points. I've actually improved in some aspects with your "harsh" critism

(05-14-2016, 09:16 PM)Inton Wrote:

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(05-14-2016, 09:14 PM)BubbleBoy Wrote:

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LOL!!! OMG INTON! You're taking this too far. All this started with the awards I made. I was going to to make awards for the site. Nathy insisted that he was going to pay me. At first I was like, okay, I guess. I felt guilty because honestly, I didn't want to get paid for it. So I told him I'd do it for free. He kept insisting that he was going to pay me because of all I've done for FR and SBB. Keep in mind I wasn't paid for ANYTHING I've done for FR ans SBB. I said if he were to pay me just make my group cheaper, $10 was what he was going to pay me for whatever awards he needed, so my group would cost 10 dollars less. But I thought to myself, I've done all this for the community I love, and I love what I'm doing, so I paid full price for the group anyways, because I didn't want to get paid for something I love doing.

I am no mind-reader, nor do I follow every one of your public conversations with Nathy. (I promise I am no stalker. Sometimes.) You did admit that you at first agreed to taking payment, which is what I went off. Seeing how I couldn't find a place where you refused it until I said something about it. Also, I am not taking it "too far", I was just trying to prove the point to someone who actually have the intellect to debate properly. (Which is more or less for fun.)

Of course @12 , these kids are taking you serious, be careful lol you might hurt their pride

You guys need to stop, Inton and Bubble are both direct people when it comes to things. Sure Inton might seem like a dick at times but that is far from his intentions. This is just going to go on and on for no real reason, Just stop replying and leave it how it is there literally is no point carrying all this on.